Infinia vs Magnus vs Atlas

[raviemailid]

BACKGROUND STORY:

I had no credit card till June 2021 because of bad credit. I had defaulted on a couple of credit cards about a decade ago and had decided to stick to debit cards and real money for my needs. All of this was going good - I was paying full money for amazon, Flipkart shopping, full money for Zomato, Swiggy, Uber and for anything that you can think of. Life was simple.

But I always wished if I had a credit card - especially the Amazon ICICI credit card - I was a moderate user of Amazon and having the luxury of 5% cash back on everything was nothing short of a dream for me. This thought pushed me to apply for it and it got rejected, obviously. I approached the bank - visited the branch nearby, something that I hadn't done for 5 years. ICICI bank was good and friendly - helped me close my old credit card and issued me a credit card against an FD. Well, they also took 2L cheque for opening some premium account. I didn't need all that but the excitement of getting a CC was worth that stupid 2L FD (that FD is still running with them) and I was issued a Coral credit card. I was happy. 6 months later, after many applications and requests, I was issued an Amazon ICICI Pay credit card and then, after some time, I got Flipkart Axis.

I was on cloud 9 - all my credit card dreams were fulfilled, I was saving 5% flat from FK and Amazon plus some sundry 4% cashback from other apps and a flat 1.5% cashback on all the spends for FK Axis. I moved all my expenses to CC and migrated to cred for bill payments. I also got my hands on Zomato RBL card (which became shoprite card), IndusInd Legend and SBI BPCL card. All of this was good for some 10 months. Then in one of my persuasive conversations with my HDFC RM, the bank I have the longest and heaviest relationship with, but also the one refusing to issue me a credit card, sprang a surprise. Guess I had bothered her to death saying how can you not give me a credit card when I am your classic customer and ICICI and Axis can. RM, utterly fed-up with me, apologized again and threw a last straw towards me - "sir, are you from IIT/IIM or any premier institute?" I was like, "What do you mean, I am from IIM."

I was issued Diners Club Black - which introduced me to 3.3% cashback and the luxuries of credit cards. I was elated and boasted about it to my wife. Hell, I got her an add-on card for lounge visits. Life was all good for another 10 months.

Then in June - I was introduced to GYFTR - those reward multipliers of 2x, and 3x were insane. I was like - why on earth I am not using these? Then in GYFTR, I saw Infinia listed with better reward points. I went to the HDFC portal and saw that I couldn't apply for it - it was an invitation only. This led me to do more research then I came across sites like TechnoFino, Cardinsider etc and I was totally blown away. I felt how novice of me to be happy with DCB when Magnus was killing it. I tried for Magnus in July and I was issued one. But then, I got the update of devaluation and in a panic state, I cancelled the card when it was issued. The card was still delivered to me though but it is cancelled now.

Now - I was greedy, I wanted Infinia! Spoke to RM, and being the amazing lady she is, she said I can get the paid one - and I have the paid one with me now, using it for the last 1 week. But I have understood that 3.3% is all I have except SmartBuy and GYFTR. So I have been looking for ways to find the ideal card combination for me. Hence the research.

WHY COMPARING THESE?

I have 4 main categories of expenses. The expenses that can be covered with GYFTR, second the direct hotel and flights, 3rd normal hotel and flights and 4 other expenses like insurance, fees (can't use Apay) etc. I feel stupid to have cancelled the Magnus, but I guess that may have been a blessing in disguise. Had it stayed with me, I would have tried for Burgundy status and that is not something I'd like to do with Axis bank.

Below table runs a sample point calculation for my annualized expenses. The three cards in question (Infinia, Magnus and Atlas) has a very acceptable annual charge, so I am ignoring that totally.



Magnus is considered with Burgundy benefits. For Smartbuy considering it is 5x and 10x, I have taken 7x and Traveledge is 5x. It is clear that Atlas is a very strong card but then, I thought, what if I have Atlas+Infinia combination?

So if I use Infinia for GYFTR and SmartBuy I get 33333+46667 = 80000 and Atlas for direct and general, it is 80000+24000=104000, total 184000. Add 15K milestone of Atlas and 20K joining miles from Infinia and Atlas, I have a total of 2,19,000 miles. 12% return against total expense.

Atlas expense can only be used for flight and hotel, whereas Infinia can be routed to Apple and Tanishq and trains as well. This does look like a good main 2 driver cards to use. What do you all think?

I was slightly tempted by Magnus+Burgundy, but I don't want to shift to premium banking of Axis - and as you see from the table, I am not loosing much. What other cards would you recommend?

P.S - I have applied for Atlas, the card is coming in a week!

Thank you for reading.

 

[bonheur]

That's my effective discount (which can be used for next booking, and should not be double counted as discount in next booking again).

That’s one way of looking at it. But my definition of discount is the opposite. If I need to pay ₹500 and I have a way of bringing it down to ₹150 no matter through points or instant discount, my net outlay reduces by ₹350. 500 is the amount I was budgeting for, so I would be happy to use the savings of 350 somewhere else, not the 25 additional points I’ll be earning in the process, as those points have no value in the real world outside of a specific transaction on a very specific website.

That way, I consider that Infinia consistently gives me a 70% discount (assuming I have enough points, and I have never seen an overpriced Smartbuy ticket).

 

[drsel]

Infinia consistently gives me a 70% discount (assuming I have enough points, and I have never seen an overpriced Smartbuy ticket).

My friend you are mistaken
Infinia does not give 70% discount on air tickets.

Airline commission on international tickets is 10 to 22% only on the base fare, excluding airport fees and taxes.
Airline commission on domestic tickets is
0 to 5% only on the base fare, excluding airport fees and taxes.
(Airlines obviously can't give a discount on charges which have be paid to the airport and government)

What you see as 70% discount is actually the return on your previous spends.
Real returns on INFINIA are 13.46% at best, when the points earned on Smartbuy (max 15000 per day/month) are used to buy air tickets on Smartbuy (using 70% points, 30% real money)

Yes, credit cards do give high return on spends, just like return on investment.
eg. Old Magnus was giving up to 44% return on spends before it got devalued

Credit card issuing banks make their profits from foolish delinquent users and reward the smart users!

 

[drsel]

Infinia points are devalued 50% for 7 partners--
Accor hotels
Turkish airlines
Avianca airline
British Airways
Etihad Airways
United airlines
Air Canada

 

[bonheur]

My friend you are mistaken
Infinia does not give 70% discount on air tickets.

What you see as 70% discount is actually the return on your previous spends

You're stating an obvious fact but coming at it from the other end.

I can collect 350 points by spending ₹10500 through regular spends (at 1x), or even just by spending ₹1050 (at 10x). But those points are valuable only when I need to — and am able to — use them, otherwise they are vapour. Redemption gives those points value, not collection.

Infinia points are devalued 50% for 7 partners--
Accor hotels
Turkish airlines
Avianca airline
British Airways
Etihad Airways
United airlines
Air Canada

Thankfully this doesn't affect me yet. My use cases (mostly direct domestic bookings) still gives me 70% off.

Also this proves my point. I had 350 points earlier that I collected by spending hard on this card. But now onwards I can only derive a value of 175 from it. Hence the points can only be correctly valued at the time of redemption.

 

[drsel]

HDFC Infinia (Rs.2250) for--
a. Amazon pay on Smartbuy 5x points
b. Flights on SmartBuy 5x points
Convenience fee extra, No discount.
But check for price markup compared to the direct airline/Skyscanner/MMT/Cleartrip.

Return 13.50% (since points can be used for only 70% of airfare).
Return 8.33%, if points transferred to Accor.
Return 4.16--6.66% if points transferred to Turkish, Avianka, British, Etihad, United, Air Canada
Return 8.33--13.33%, if points transferred to AirAsia, KLM/Air France, Finnair, Singapore, Vistara, Vietnam, Hainan, IHG, Wyndham.

How much are International Airline Miles worth in India? - moolahgeeks​

Our analysis of 100s of flights shows that miles from international airlines are worth much less in India that they are globally.
www.moolahgeeks.com

 

[vine]

Interest is calculated on the principle amount.
Isn't that the same for discounts too.

 

[Zacobite]

Interesting discussion above. I am a newbie to Infinia and here, but this is the way I see it, and couldn't resist commenting.

For this example, 1L air ticket+ 3200 fees.
At one extreme, let's say I have zero points left. So I spend 1,03,200. Which gives me 17200 RPs, but with daily cap, I get 15000 RPs. That's my effective discount (which can be used for next booking, and should not be double counted as discount in next booking again).
Effective tkt price is 103200-15000=88200
Note: Someone said 70% discount as we use ,70% RP, but that's double counting. Those RPs were the discount earned on other past purchases.

The other extreme is. Let's say I had accumulated 70000 points. So I pay only 30000 + 3200 by Infinia which gives back 5525 RPs. Effective price is 103200-5525=97675

Real effective price (and effective discount) will lie somewhere in between depending on how many points are used.

With direct mmt offer, tkt price after 10% discount is 93200

Breakeven of 10000RPs and same effective price as direct discount is when I pay 60000 by card and rest 43200 by points, assuming I have them.

Now if I had lot of points, I view them as a separate bank account where my cashback (discount) from earlier transactions is deposited. Caveat being, I can use it only on flight, hotel for full value. CC companies use the principle of deferred discounts and that "Redemption of deferred discounts reduce future discounts", but you folks are veterans and already know that.

So what is the decision tree? Should I use direct mmt discount, or should I use points. Answer is "it depends". Are those points about to expire soon? Will I get an opportunity to use them at a time when no other great direct discounts are available? Maybe I will use up points on flight, and prefer to pay for hotel since it gives 10X RPs.

PS: For domestic, I have never seen marked up prices on smartbuy vs other platforms. It's possible that tracking cookies increase the price by the time you come from other website first and then come to smartbuy.

it doesn't matter.. its a discount.. period!! and that too for spending on expenses that you anyways would have.. if you spend to get points then its the beginning of a long dark hole..all these ideas are to maximize only... so doing so much math may defeat the purpose..

 

[infinia_finally]

it doesn't matter.. its a discount.. period!! and that too for spending on expenses that you anyways would have.. if you spend to get points then its the beginning of a long dark hole..all these ideas are to maximize only... so doing so much math may defeat the purpose..

Agreed. The post was just for those who want to maximise. There was some confusion regarding prices being higher on smartbuy, and ways to get around it.

Personally, I keep things simple and only use single card (infinia) for everything. Life gives enough stress elsewhere and makes us think hard, that there is no energy to think about which card for which occassion.

 

[drsel]

Interesting discussion above. I am a newbie to Infinia and here, but this is the way I see it, and couldn't resist commenting.

For this example, 1L air ticket+ 3200 fees.
At one extreme, let's say I have zero points left. So I spend 1,03,200. Which gives me 17200 RPs, but with daily cap, I get 15000 RPs. That's my effective discount (which can be used for next booking, and should not be double counted as discount in next booking again).
Effective tkt price is 103200-15000=88200
Note: Someone said 70% discount as we use ,70% RP, but that's double counting. Those RPs were the discount earned on other past purchases.

The other extreme is. Let's say I had accumulated 70000 points. So I pay only 30000 + 3200 by Infinia which gives back 5525 RPs. Effective price is 103200-5525=97675

Real effective price (and effective discount) will lie somewhere in between depending on how many points are used.

With direct mmt offer, tkt price after 10% discount is 93200

Breakeven of 10000RPs and same effective price as direct discount is when I pay 60000 by card and rest 43200 by points, assuming I have them.

Now if I had lot of points, I view them as a separate bank account where my cashback (discount) from earlier transactions is deposited. Caveat being, I can use it only on flight, hotel for full value. CC companies use the principle of deferred discounts and that "Redemption of deferred discounts reduce future discounts", but you folks are veterans and already know that.

So what is the decision tree? Should I use direct mmt discount, or should I use points. Answer is "it depends". Are those points about to expire soon? Will I get an opportunity to use them at a time when no other great direct discounts are available? Maybe I will use up points on flight, and prefer to pay for hotel since it gives 10X RPs.

PS: For domestic, I have never seen marked up prices on smartbuy vs other platforms. It's possible that tracking cookies increase the price by the time you come from other website first and then come to smartbuy.

According to this calculation, Infinia return is 14.54% but Axis Magnus Burgundy on Traveledge gives you 24% return, assuming the prices are not inflated

 

[infinia_finally]

According to this calculation, Infinia return is 14.54% but Axis Magnus Burgundy on Traveledge gives you 24% return, assuming the prices are not inflated

When you use traveledge -> miles -> booking, then again you are not earning rewards on that booking which you use points (miles) to buy. Correct me if I am wrong here. Same as Infinia or any other card that uses reward points.
And all high reward cards deal in points and special platforms to redeem points, not direct 10+% cashback

So I think I have reached a conclusion that just compare the natural reward rate (considering multipliers and redemption ratios) for each card.
And as you noted earlier, one should be aware of very high potential markups on smartbuy flight prices (although I haven't personally experienced them)

There are great comparison matrices already compiled.

 

[drsel]

When you use traveledge -> miles -> booking, then again you are not earning rewards on that booking which you use points (miles) to buy. Correct me if I am wrong here. Same as Infinia or any other card that uses reward points.
And all high reward cards deal in points and special platforms to redeem points, not direct 10+% cashback

So I think I have reached a conclusion that just compare the natural reward rate (considering multipliers and redemption ratios) for each card.
And as you noted earlier, one should be aware of very high potential markups on smartbuy flight prices (although I haven't personally experienced them)

There are great comparison matrices already compiled.

No you shouldn't redeem edge points or edge miles on Traveledge.

Use Magnus Burgundy card to buy air tickets on Traveledge to get 1x points (12/200) after 3 days and balance 4x points (48/200) within 45 days (upto 60000 points on 2 lakhs spend per calendar month).

 

[Lobogris]

That’s one way of looking at it. But my definition of discount is the opposite. If I need to pay ₹500 and I have a way of bringing it down to ₹150 no matter through points or instant discount, my net outlay reduces by ₹350. 500 is the amount I was budgeting for, so I would be happy to use the savings of 350 somewhere else, not the 25 additional points I’ll be earning in the process, as those points have no value in the real world outside of a specific transaction on a very specific website.

That way, I consider that Infinia consistently gives me a 70% discount (assuming I have enough points, and I have never seen an overpriced Smartbuy ticket).

Let's say I use SBI BPCL Octane card to fill fuel and get around 300 cashback on fillup of 4k each time. In a month, I accumulate 600 as cashback and in about 7 months, I have accumulated 4.2k in cashback. Now I go to the petrol station and fill up for 4k using this accumulated cashback and pay nothing from my pocket. Can I now claim that my SBI card gives 100% reward rate?

 

[drsel]

Let's say I use SBI BPCL Octane card to fill fuel and get around 300 cashback on fillup of 4k each time. In a month, I accumulate 600 as cashback and in about 7 months, I have accumulated 4.2k in cashback. Now I go to the petrol station and fill up for 4k using this accumulated cashback and pay nothing from my pocket. Can I now claim that my SBI card gives 100% reward rate?

The smart MBA investment bankers at HDFC have convinced the customers that they are getting the best deal (or 70% discount on air tickets, when the commission only 10 to 16% from the airline, that too only on the basic fare excluding airport fees and taxes).

They fool some Infinia card holders into believing that they get only 16% commission, but they give 70% discount and the difference is paid out from their pocket!

 

[Lobogris]

The smart MBA investment bankers at HDFC have convinced the customers that they are getting the best deal (or 70% discount on air tickets, when the commission only 10 to 16% from the airline, that too only on the basic fare excluding airport fees and taxes).

They fool some Infinia card holders into believing that they get only 16% commission, but they give 70% discount and the difference is paid out from their pocket!

I have Infinia as well and love it but obviously it only provides a maximum of around 10 to 15% cashback in the best case scenario. I sometimes use Axis Atlas instead or even SBI Cashback depending on what works better for airline and hotel reservations.

 

[CD.]

The smart MBA investment bankers at HDFC have convinced the customers that they are getting the best deal (or 70% discount on air tickets, when the commission only 10 to 16% from the airline, that too only on the basic fare excluding airport fees and taxes).

They fool some Infinia card holders into believing that they get only 16% commission, but they give 70% discount and the difference is paid out from their pocket!

people buy insurance, ulips, FDs, loans to get infinia one day. That was the stategy of Deepak Parekh instead of going to large corporate loand and deposits.

 

[infinia_finally]

Let's say I use SBI BPCL Octane card to fill fuel and get around 300 cashback on fillup of 4k each time. In a month, I accumulate 600 as cashback and in about 7 months, I have accumulated 4.2k in cashback. Now I go to the petrol station and fill up for 4k using this accumulated cashback and pay nothing from my pocket. Can I now claim that my SBI card gives 100% reward rate?

You filled 48k of petrol and received 4.2k cashback. That is 8.75% reward rate. This is the easiest way to look at it I think.

We can complicate things further though

 

[Lobogris]

You filled 48k of petrol and received 4.2k cashback. That is 8.75% reward rate. This is the easiest way to look at it I think.

We can complicate things further though

I know that. The example was provided for people who think they are getting 70% off.

 

[Lobogris]

people buy insurance, ulips, FDs, loans to get infinia one day. That was the stategy of Deepak Parekh instead of going to large corporate loand and deposits.

It's totally worth it though. I have done the same to get it and would do so again without hesitation if required.

 

[infinia_finally]

I know that. The example was provided for people who think they are getting 70% off.

Ohh of course you are a tenured member. I should have realised.

But then let me complicate things further for those who think its 70% reward rate.

Here is effective reward rate.
To receive 150 RPs, I have given the expenditure required in both normal, 5X, 10X categories.
I am taking this case because 150 is the minimum spend to receive RPs.
When we spend those 150 RPs, we don't get further RPs.
Which means, on an effective spend of 4650 we got 150 RPs, and similar for 5X, 10X cases.
So effective discount is 3.23% or 14.29% or 25% (which I am still happy with)

PS: The only assumption is its 1:1 redemption for flight/hotel/tanishq etc

Everything else is marketing by HDFC and trying to entice us to spend on unneeded stuff by creating more anxiety.
It doesn't matter how we spend those 150 RPs. It also doesn't matter whether we redeem 70% of flight/hotel booking as points, or less or more. As long as we are able to spend those RPs on "genuine" purchases before the points expire, or before we close the card (or worse, before we die), those RPs are ours to spend.

By putting these limitations on point expiry, HDFC wants us to spend on unnecessary purchases in anxiety.
By putting 70% cap, they further aggravate the situation and delay our redemption, creating anxiety and forcing us to spend on unnecessary purchases.
And if smartbuy marks up further, then even worse.

 

[anotheruser]

Ohh of course you are a tenured member. I should have realised.

But then let me complicate things further for those who think its 70% reward rate.

Here is effective reward rate.
To receive 150 RPs, I have given the expenditure required in both normal, 5X, 10X categories.
I am taking this case because 150 is the minimum spend to receive RPs.
When we spend those 150 RPs, we don't get further RPs.
Which means, on an effective spend of 4650 we got 150 RPs, and similar for 5X, 10X cases.
So effective discount is 3.23% or 14.29% or 25% (which I am still happy with)

PS: The only assumption is its 1:1 redemption for flight/hotel/tanishq etc

Everything else is marketing by HDFC and trying to entice us to spend on unneeded stuff by creating more anxiety.
It doesn't matter how we spend those 150 RPs. It also doesn't matter whether we redeem 70% of flight/hotel booking as points, or less or more. As long as we are able to spend those RPs on "genuine" purchases before the points expire, or before we close the card (or worse, before we die), those RPs are ours to spend.

By putting these limitations on point expiry, HDFC wants us to spend on unnecessary purchases in anxiety.
By putting 70% cap, they further aggravate the situation and delay our redemption, creating anxiety and forcing us to spend on unnecessary purchases.
And if smartbuy marks up further, then even worse.

Isn't 3 years enough time for expiry? And I feels its much better as long as it maintains value.
Otherwise things like magnus would happen.

Also, i general for this thread, while comparing miles as return, its important to understand that miles are mainly valuable for international travels or some bigger hotel chains.
For domestic flights, Vistara(most common partner) has limited presence and for smaller cities, you'll mostly book revenue bookings to fund for your international travels.
+ Hassle of thinking about booking in so advance and limited availability.

Also for bigger chains, what I have realized is that they have more presence in bigger cities and less in "touristy places".

I do believe miles are much much valued in international travels.

And as a normal user(like me), its important to filter out cases where people show that they travelled this this with just points.
This makes it lucrative for people to be attracted without understanding that most those people either
1. Have large expenses ( and hence incomes)
2. Are influencers who get miles by referrals
3. Rotate money across cards

+ (Priority pass for infinia addon) is such an underrated feature.

Hence, I beleive its ok to have some limitations by hdfc as long as they dont end up devaluing infinia like magnus.

again personal opinion.