Infinia Easiest way to get an Infinia Metal I've ever heard

[Swastik]

Freind of mine called me today, he is an entrepreneur, has a startup with friends making and installing electric car chargers ,never had a credit card till now ,went upto HDFC bank Lucknow branch few weeks back to open an account with a check of 20 Lakhs and told them only if he gets an Infinia LTF ,first they said we'll give you DCB LTF ,try for Infinia after you open the account but he wouldn't take any of it ,told them either give Infinia or he'll take his business to Axis people (who were offering him Magnus) ,so the HDFC people agreed and he got an Infinia FYF with 55 Lakhs limit

What makes me jealous is that I'm 31 and the best I've got is a Magnus with 5 Lakhs limit ,which is like my 15th card my 8 year credit card journey ,Infinia is something of a dream for me ,can't even get DCB from them ,all I've from HDFC is a measly Millennia with 1.16 Lakhs limit

And this guy is just 27 & this is his first card. 🙄

Thoughts ?

 

[financewizard]

Absolutely wrong. I just purchased another vehicle with more discounts than usual and still DID not pay any additional charges and this is today's latest update. They obviously did everything they could to try to negotiate, request, emotional angle of low margins, "this is standard across all dealers", etc. but I refused to bend.

Ended up paying by my SPC 5L+ downpayment with zero additional charges.

This is a non-negotiable element for me, I pay only by card and at zero extra charges. You need to know your rights, be aware of what is right and wrong and accordingly deal. Obviously, other party would try to F you over any opportunity they get through various tactics.

People that aren't aware sit down and negotiate stating they'll take 1%, 0.5%, 0.8%, etc. on them for letting you use your card, why would you do that?

It's a BUSINESS expense that the dealer incurs which they pay to the payment processor for facilitating the transaction via the card. So it makes no sense (and not legal either) for the end customer to bear those expenses and for what exactly? Is the dealer your relative that you're doing a favor or are they doing any favor to you for which you're repaying by accepting such illegal additional charges?

You are giving them business, they have the margin, they're making profit from the sale. There is no need to bend your rules for others. If the dealer is not making margins, they'll not let you buy the vehicle. They make margins in everything from vehicle sale to accessories to insurance to loan to addon services, etc. (Tip: Buy insurance from out, get loan directly, stop buying unwanted addons or shitty things you don't need or that can be bought outside unless the quality is actually really good and is worthy).

I've bought 2 vehicles in last 1.5+ years.
1. A vehicle that's still in high demand and has a waiting period of 18 months. I bought it at introductory price. Paid by card @ zero additional charges. I'm in 4L+ gains if we go by the latest pricing.
2. A vehicle whose facelift was released just 4 months back, got at additional discounts than usual in addition to company discounts + accessories, etc. Paid by card @ zero additional charges. I'm in 3L+ benefits.

STOP PAYING DEALERS ADDITIONAL CHARGES. NOTHING CAN JUSTIFY THOSE, IT'S JUST MORE MARGINS FOR THEM.

PAY BY CARD. EARN REWARDS. Don't fall for their shit. Be smart. Self educate yourself and spread awareness too.

You are right. These car companies just want to milk as much cash as possible from Customer. In my case - for car service they tried charging additional charges for payment via credit card. Then I wrote a formal mail stating that what they are doing is illegal and I will challange it in consumer court. Now they have simply stopped having POS machine and are just sending links to pay amount online. And in that online portal they are charging a convenience fee (as percentage of bill) + GST for the levied convenience fee for credit card payments.

 

[realjayt]

Absolutely wrong. I just purchased another vehicle with more discounts than usual and still DID not pay any additional charges and this is today's latest update. They obviously did everything they could to try to negotiate, request, emotional angle of low margins, "this is standard across all dealers", etc. but I refused to bend.

Ended up paying by my SPC 5L+ downpayment with zero additional charges.

This is a non-negotiable element for me, I pay only by card and at zero extra charges. You need to know your rights, be aware of what is right and wrong and accordingly deal. Obviously, other party would try to F you over any opportunity they get through various tactics.

People that aren't aware sit down and negotiate stating they'll take 1%, 0.5%, 0.8%, etc. on them for letting you use your card, why would you do that?

It's a BUSINESS expense that the dealer incurs which they pay to the payment processor for facilitating the transaction via the card. So it makes no sense (and not legal either) for the end customer to bear those expenses and for what exactly? Is the dealer your relative that you're doing a favor or are they doing any favor to you for which you're repaying by accepting such illegal additional charges?

You are giving them business, they have the margin, they're making profit from the sale. There is no need to bend your rules for others. If the dealer is not making margins, they'll not let you buy the vehicle. They make margins in everything from vehicle sale to accessories to insurance to loan to addon services, etc. (Tip: Buy insurance from out, get loan directly, stop buying unwanted addons or shitty things you don't need or that can be bought outside unless the quality is actually really good and is worthy).

I've bought 2 vehicles in last 1.5+ years.
1. A vehicle that's still in high demand and has a waiting period of 18 months. I bought it at introductory price. Paid by card @ zero additional charges. I'm in 4L+ gains if we go by the latest pricing.
2. A vehicle whose facelift was released just 4 months back, got at additional discounts than usual in addition to company discounts + accessories, etc. Paid by card @ zero additional charges. I'm in 3L+ benefits.

STOP PAYING DEALERS ADDITIONAL CHARGES. NOTHING CAN JUSTIFY THOSE, IT'S JUST MORE MARGINS FOR THEM.

PAY BY CARD. EARN REWARDS. Don't fall for their shit. Be smart. Self educate yourself and spread awareness too.

What car did you get and in which city?

 

[SmartSave]

...And in that online portal they are charging a convenience fee (as percentage of bill) + GST for the levied convenience fee for credit card payments.

They trying to be smart. Convenience fee legality is not clear, gotta consult a proper lawyer + study on this to better understand. For certain categories, it is legal but not for all and car dealers is one of them that isn't legal for sure. Someone with time, dedication, and courage can put up a fight for a cause and get things fixed. 99% of the time, we simply accept and move on and this is everyone of us in general which leads to easy exploitations by all these companies.

Hats off to those folks that went after things like charging for a carry bag with branding by malls/shops, overcharging above MRP, etc. they fought not for 15-20 rupees or that small compensation they got awarded but for a greater good and for a change that we see at such a scale today! That kinda bamboo treatment is needed to get companies that exploit end customers to think 100 times before overcharging or charging extra citing various things.

What car did you get and in which city?

MG ZS EV Exclusive Pro

 

[shashankrt]

Absolutely wrong. I just purchased another vehicle with more discounts than usual and still DID not pay any additional charges and this is today's latest update. They obviously did everything they could to try to negotiate, request, emotional angle of low margins, "this is standard across all dealers", etc. but I refused to bend.

Ended up paying by my SPC 5L+ downpayment with zero additional charges.

This is a non-negotiable element for me, I pay only by card and at zero extra charges. You need to know your rights, be aware of what is right and wrong and accordingly deal. Obviously, other party would try to F you over any opportunity they get through various tactics.

People that aren't aware sit down and negotiate stating they'll take 1%, 0.5%, 0.8%, etc. on them for letting you use your card, why would you do that?

It's a BUSINESS expense that the dealer incurs which they pay to the payment processor for facilitating the transaction via the card. So it makes no sense (and not legal either) for the end customer to bear those expenses and for what exactly? Is the dealer your relative that you're doing a favor or are they doing any favor to you for which you're repaying by accepting such illegal additional charges?

You are giving them business, they have the margin, they're making profit from the sale. There is no need to bend your rules for others. If the dealer is not making margins, they'll not let you buy the vehicle. They make margins in everything from vehicle sale to accessories to insurance to loan to addon services, etc. (Tip: Buy insurance from out, get loan directly, stop buying unwanted addons or shitty things you don't need or that can be bought outside unless the quality is actually really good and is worthy).

I've bought 2 vehicles in last 1.5+ years.
1. A vehicle that's still in high demand and has a waiting period of 18 months. I bought it at introductory price. Paid by card @ zero additional charges. I'm in 4L+ gains if we go by the latest pricing.
2. A vehicle whose facelift was released just 4 months back, got at additional discounts than usual in addition to company discounts + accessories, etc. Paid by card @ zero additional charges. I'm in 3L+ benefits.

STOP PAYING DEALERS ADDITIONAL CHARGES. NOTHING CAN JUSTIFY THOSE, IT'S JUST MORE MARGINS FOR THEM.

PAY BY CARD. EARN REWARDS. Don't fall for their shit. Be smart. Self educate yourself and spread awareness too.

Well legally speaking the rule from RBI applies if your are paying at MRP (as the dealer then is charging above MRP which anyways become illegal over and above the rule from RBI). Also RBI rule is circumvented by govt itself multiple times - example surcharge on fuel payment by card or convenience fees for cc payments on multiple govt platforms (railways, some govt payment etc). Hence whilst I agree on your overall statement its cannot be enforced (legally) in case of discount purchases.

For your 1st example (probably XUV or scorpio or Thar) your purchase was at MRP so above rule on MDR legally applies.
For 2nd example probably dealer did not offer you max discount and hence was ok to take hit on MDR. In my case dealer flat out refused (and I was in a sticky situation as my Bank loan disbursement was delayed). Either way perhaps I should have stood ground - let see in next purchase.

PAY BY CARD. EARN REWARDS. Don't fall for their shit. Be smart. Self educate yourself and spread awareness too.

Not always true - for example Razorpay has a feature where they allow merchants to charge "convenience fee" which is nothing but mdr fee in disguise and this is use mostly by schools when you ask for payment by card. Here you need to look out for how much are those charges.

Please find the revised Razorpay charges:

Mode of payment	Transaction charges to parent
Net Banking	NIL
Debit cards	NIL
UPI	NIL
Wallets Through UPI	NIL
Credit Cards excluding Amex & International cards	0.85% plus GST
American Express Credit Cards	1% plus GST
International cards	2.40% plus GST
Wallets	1% plus GST

See above - charges legally charged by razorpay. Now tell me what is RBI doing in this case?

 

[shashankrt]

You are right. These car companies just want to milk as much cash as possible from Customer. In my case - for car service they tried charging additional charges for payment via credit card. Then I wrote a formal mail stating that what they are doing is illegal and I will challange it in consumer court. Now they have simply stopped having POS machine and are just sending links to pay amount online. And in that online portal they are charging a convenience fee (as percentage of bill) + GST for the levied convenience fee for credit card payments.

Similar to the point I mentioned in earlier post. This really needs to be stopped however govt (IRCTS, Railways etc) itself does this nonsense so how will they prevent others?

 

[SmartSave]

Well legally speaking the rule from RBI applies if your are paying at MRP (as the dealer then is charging above MRP which anyways become illegal over and above the rule from RBI). Also RBI rule is circumvented by govt itself multiple times - example surcharge on fuel payment by card or convenience fees for cc payments on multiple govt platforms (railways, some govt payment etc). Hence whilst I agree on your overall statement its cannot be enforced (legally) in case of discount purchases.

For your 1st example (probably XUV or scorpio or Thar) your purchase was at MRP so above rule on MDR legally applies.
For 2nd example probably dealer did not offer you max discount and hence was ok to take hit on MDR. In my case dealer flat out refused (and I was in a sticky situation as my Bank loan disbursement was delayed). Either way perhaps I should have stood ground - let see in next purchase.

No. As per the RBI guidelines, the MDR is a fee payable by the merchant and not the customer. Therefore, a car dealer cannot pass on the MDR to the end customer for payment via credit card, whether the car is purchased on MRP or at a discount. This would amount to a violation of the RBI guidelines and the terms and conditions of the merchant agreement with the acquiring bank. The customer can lodge a complaint with the bank or the card network if they are charged any extra amount for using their card.

This has nothing to do with MRP/Discounted price, in fact, it makes no sense, it's got no association. You're just assuming various scenarios to justify something that isn't legal whatsoever. There are no such rules that say if merchant gives discount whether max or min, then they'll handle the MDR or not and if it's at MRP, etc. nothing of those sort is applicable. It's a violation and merchant cannot justify. Period.

We do online business and utilize online payment solutions to accept payments from other countries, the cost can go up to 10% but that does not mean we demand our end customer to pay us our product price + the cost to process their payment separately, that's a business expense which we have to bear in order to accept the card, and for the payment solution to handle various things on our behalf (taxations, etc.). Of course the pricing will be set taking into account the expenses, cost of goods, margins, discounts, etc. and that is how a product is priced and sold but saying I'll charge you additional because you've taken x discount or you're paying by card or I'll handle those if you don't take discount is not a valid justification.

The discounts too are capped as with anything and even after the discounts, one wouldn't sell without any sort of gains (directly or indirectly, it can be monetary or through other means).

There's a dedicated thread by the founder of this forum discussing this and many have already participated previously on this subject which is a good resource to learn more: Did you know that you can file a complaint with the RBI if a merchant charges you MDR fees for using a credit card? | TechnoFino - #1 Community Of Credit Card & Banking Experts

As far as the convenience fee is concerned, it appears RBI has allowed that and it makes sense which is very well explained already by a member of this forum, here. I would encourage you and others read it to understand the difference.

...And as with anything, guidelines/rules are one thing, enforcing them is another and exploitations happen across all sorts of places, it is up to us to know, understand and take an informed decision. If you feel you've been wronged, then instead of being silent, take action. The more people complaint and take action, the better things get but instead of people taking action, they chose to accept whatever the other party says because of which these things are easily happening everywhere.

Just look at the audacity of the dealers so casually flexing that it's a standard practice, like they've been doing it at such a large scale and been getting away to a point where it's become their SOP even if it's illegal and confidence is on the next level. Noob customers who don't know end up "trusting" and giving in, because it's the "standard".

 

[card-shard]

No. As per the RBI guidelines, the MDR is a fee payable by the merchant and not the customer. Therefore, a car dealer cannot pass on the MDR to the end customer for payment via credit card, whether the car is purchased on MRP or at a discount. This would amount to a violation of the RBI guidelines and the terms and conditions of the merchant agreement with the acquiring bank. The customer can lodge a complaint with the bank or the card network if they are charged any extra amount for using their card.

This has nothing to do with MRP/Discounted price, in fact, it makes no sense, it's got no association. You're just assuming various scenarios to justify something that isn't legal whatsoever. There are no such rules that say if merchant gives discount whether max or min, then they'll handle the MDR or not and if it's at MRP, etc. nothing of those sort is applicable. It's a violation and merchant cannot justify. Period.

We do online business and utilize online payment solutions to accept payments from other countries, the cost can go up to 10% but that does not mean we demand our end customer to pay us our product price + the cost to process their payment separately, that's a business expense which we have to bear in order to accept the card, and for the payment solution to handle various things on our behalf (taxations, etc.). Of course the pricing will be set taking into account the expenses, cost of goods, margins, discounts, etc. and that is how a product is priced and sold but saying I'll charge you additional because you've taken x discount or you're paying by card or I'll handle those if you don't take discount is not a valid justification.

The discounts too are capped as with anything and even after the discounts, one wouldn't sell without any sort of gains (directly or indirectly, it can be monetary or through other means).

There's a dedicated thread by the founder of this forum discussing this and many have already participated previously on this subject which is a good resource to learn more: Did you know that you can file a complaint with the RBI if a merchant charges you MDR fees for using a credit card? | TechnoFino - #1 Community Of Credit Card & Banking Experts

As far as the convenience fee is concerned, it appears RBI has allowed that and it makes sense which is very well explained already by a member of this forum, here. I would encourage you and others read it to understand the difference.

...And as with anything, guidelines/rules are one thing, enforcing them is another and exploitations happen across all sorts of places, it is up to us to know, understand and take an informed decision. If you feel you've been wronged, then instead of being silent, take action. The more people complaint and take action, the better things get but instead of people taking action, they chose to accept whatever the other party says because of which these things are easily happening everywhere.

Just look at the audacity of the dealers so casually flexing that it's a standard practice, like they've been doing it at such a large scale and been getting away to a point where it's become their SOP even if it's illegal and confidence is on the next level. Noob customers who don't know end up "trusting" and giving in, because it's the "standard".

Even Paytm is charging Rs 1-2 extra for recharge in the name of convenience fee. Zomato/Swiggy is charging Rs 3-5 extra in the name of platform fee.
I am sure there are enough loopholes/provisions for a company to pass-on any extra charge to the customer.
MRP nowadays is becoming joke in online world. Brands just make it to 2999, 3999, 4999 and then give 0-99% discount.
There is no process to set "justified" MRP in the first place. Any company can print any MRP value and then can give up-to 99% discount.

Regarding dealers charging/not-charging extra MDR, a lot depends on their sales numbers, profit margins, location etc.
For bigger cities, sales numbers for any showroom is higher than tier 2/3 cities. For costly cars, margins are higher than entry level cars.
For top models or cars with add-ons purchased, the margins can be higher than base models, so many other factors.

So likely that dealers in prime cities/prime locations can afford to take the MDR hit themselves, whereas low sales area dealers can't afford to, in order to get sustainable profits.
After few people "fight" for not paying extra charges, companies/dealers will come up with crafty ways to add that cost somewhere, like Zomato/Paytm/IRCTC etc...
(I personally don't believe in fighting for "MDR", if the dealer accepts great, if not I make payment in the ways the dealer accepts. Peace.)

MRP has been very beneficial for Indian masses, but the obsession of Indians with discounts/deals on MRP, is increasingly making this concept a lame joke.
That's unfortunate & sad.

 

[shashankrt]

We do online business and utilize online payment solutions to accept payments from other countries, the cost can go up to 10% but that does not mean we demand our end customer to pay us our product price + the cost to process their payment separately, that's a business expense which we have to bear in order to accept the card, and for the payment solution to handle various things on our behalf (taxations, etc.). Of course the pricing will be set taking into account the expenses, cost of goods, margins, discounts, etc. and that is how a product is priced and sold but saying I'll charge you additional because you've taken x discount or you're paying by card or I'll handle those if you don't take discount is not a valid justification.

As far as the convenience fee is concerned, it appears RBI has allowed that and it makes sense which is very well explained already by a member of this forum, here. I would encourage you and others read it to understand the difference.

There is quite some contradiction in above post.

Yes I agree we should not allow dealers to fleece us - however they can just reduce discount citing additional MDR fees (thats where my point of MRP vs discount)

Coming to second part - basically by justifying convenience charges RBI has allowed a loophole in their own rule of no MDR charges. Now everyone will move to online payment gateway and stop using POS machines. (Car dealers and schools have already started this)

If we are so against MDR then we should force RBI to get rid of these convenience charges as well. Look at razorpay example above - they are literally charging MDR in guise of convenience charges. Our members justifying it doesn't make any sense (there is no service being provided here and if yes then even POS is a service and MDR charges will be legal - which currently they are not)

Its just contradictory to oppose MDR and justify convenience charges! That justification of convenience charge does not make any sense. Just like businesses use payment gateways, so do POS terminals. Neither of them are free and that justification and your quote of that post is just not making sense.

Its high time we stop using gateways which charge MDR in guise of convenience charges and more importantly please avoid justifying them irrespective of anything.

 

[SmartSave]

Even Paytm is charging Rs 1-2 extra for recharge in the name of convenience fee. Zomato/Swiggy is charging Rs 3-5 extra in the name of platform fee.
I am sure there are enough loopholes/provisions for a company to pass-on any extra charge to the customer.
MRP nowadays is becoming joke in online world. Brands just make it to 2999, 3999, 4999 and then give 0-99% discount.
There is no process to set "justified" MRP in the first place. Any company can print any MRP value and then can give up-to 99% discount.

Regarding dealers charging/not-charging extra MDR, a lot depends on their sales numbers, profit margins, location etc.
For bigger cities, sales numbers for any showroom is higher than tier 2/3 cities. For costly cars, margins are higher than entry level cars.
For top models or cars with add-ons purchased, the margins can be higher than base models, so many other factors.

So likely that dealers in prime cities/prime locations can afford to take the MDR hit themselves, whereas low sales area dealers can't afford to, in order to get sustainable profits.
After few people "fight" for not paying extra charges, companies/dealers will come up with crafty ways to add that cost somewhere, like Zomato/Paytm/IRCTC etc...
(I personally don't believe in fighting for "MDR", if the dealer accepts great, if not I make payment in the ways the dealer accepts. Peace.)

MRP has been very beneficial for Indian masses, but the obsession of Indians with discounts/deals on MRP, is increasingly making this concept a lame joke.
That's unfortunate & sad.

Online platforms like PayTM, Swiggy, ANY travel websites, etc. provide services that make life easier aka "convenience" hence they're allowed (as per RBI) to charge the convenience fee. It can be seen as a loophole to pass on the MDR but I genuinely don't mind paying such a fee because they truly make everyday things easier and streamlined (food/package delivery, 10 min grocery delivery, on-demand taxi, etc.). Ofc there are platforms that don't actually justify those but regardless, RBI doesn't consider it illegal and one can choose to refrain from proceeding forward if there are alternates (gov. platforms you can't avoid but still have to pay CF).

MRPs have always been a joke, nothing new. Artificially inflated rates only to show huge discounts have been there with anything and such prices would obviously include operational expenses and margins. It's to satisfy the consumer's mindset of getting things at discounted prices while also boost sales of the merchant/clear their otherwise capital locked inventory, it's universal.

It's not a valid argument on whether the dealer can afford or not, if they cannot afford to bear operational expenses, then they're in the wrong business. If they're in this business, then they very well understand all sorts of expenses their business will incur. You can't just say the dealer cannot afford to pay electricity bills, hence, they'll switch off all the lights in their showroom and the customer should co-operate to help them run the business...lol. They make enough margins upselling various things. Accessories for example have nice margins up to 40-50% too. They sell Sunfilm installation, PPF/Ceramic/Underbody coating, Insurance/Loan commissions which are recurring, and more -- All at an inflated prices from outside, there's everyone making money here not just the dealer, they get their cut in everything, nothing's free (not saying it's wrong, it's their business, it's up to the end customer to decide whether to go for it or not) but saying it lowers their margins hence the customer has to bear certain expenses of their business still doesn't make any sense or justify anything.

If they're so concerned about MDR eating up their margins, they can all collectively approach RBI and argue to let them pass on the MDR fully or partially. Surely RBI isn't stupid to make it illegal for no reasons.

Yes I agree we should not allow dealers to fleece us - however they can just reduce discount citing additional MDR fees (thats where my point of MRP vs discount)

They all price the products and cap their discounts taking into the account their operational expenses they incur and their margin, discounts from the manufacturer, bonuses they get for meeting sales target (from the manufacturer) and that's their business but trying to pass on the MDR on top of the agreed price is not valid, whether it's MRP or discounted price, that final price includes operational expenses, commissions, margins, etc. and usually they anyway have a ceiling limit and this is across all industries offline.

You don't get a discount telling dealer you're paying cash, hence, they're saving on 1-2% on MDR fees and that benefit should be passed on to you (sure you can argue as much with them and they'll def. create a mirage of them giving you more discounts than usual), no dealer would pass on the actual benefits of MDR savings or any and would rather keep that for themselves and still give you a discount as per their ceiling limit, likewise, the customer too should not accept over and above the price any kinda MDR fees. Also, dealers would rather have you take financing through them than pay them via cash because again they have a margin pushing you to take a loan than take cash. It's business, they're here to profit as much as they can from such a sale. Customers fall for shit thinking oh poor dealer isn't making much margins, so let me fall into their emotional trap and take on their business expense.

As for the convenience fee, that really varies from services to services online. It's a complex issue. Certain areas it's justifiable and certain it's not, obviously like with anything, all these companies make use of such loopholes, that I agree.

But convenience fee is not always charged for all sorts of transactions that uses Razorpay. It's something businesses control whether to pass on or to handle on their own. Having said that, platforms like Razorpay/Stripe, etc. do more than just process the card payment (data management, added fraud protection, handling chargebacks, compliances, card storage, security, ease of tech which streamlines the overall experience of accepting payment/integration, etc. etc.).

Like I said before, if merchants want to pass on the MDR to the end customers, they should get the rules revised by the RBI itself not illegally pass on as they please.

 

[card-shard]

sashankrt has already explained it well.

Having said that, platforms like Razorpay/Stripe, etc. do more than just process the card payment (data management, added fraud protection, handling chargebacks, compliances, card storage, security, ease of tech which streamlines the overall experience of accepting payment/integration, etc. etc.).

POS machines are powered by same gateways, and they also communicate via Internet to banking APIs. All the background processes are more or less the same. If you are okay that convenience fee is justified if grocery is delivered to your home, then MDR (if masked as convenience fee) can also be justified as providing convenience of not having to carry cash from ATM to shop. You just swipe a card, and make payment. No extra trip to ATM, no fear of cash being stolen/robbed. It's a major convenience.

At this points, it seems like doing mental gymnastics to justify convenience fee in one form & oppose in another form. (The RBI rule already has a loophole, so not much weightage should be given to that.)

I try to empathise with everyone, and try to find middle ground, instead of always looking only for my benefit.
Lots of people I come across fail at empathy, and always want the rules & processes that favour them. If same person is customer, then he/she will be justify getting huge discounts/freebies, and even will haggle with businesses to get little extra discount. When same person becomes a seller, then same person will try level best to get more bucks out of customer's pocket by hook or by crook.

There is a famous quote about such biased people, which I partially remember:
When people are young and earn no money, they support socialism, so that the wealth be distributed equally.
When people becomes rich & old, they support capitalism, so that people get paid whatever they work for.

 

[SmartSave]

sashankrt has already explained it well.


POS machines are powered by same gateways, and they also communicate via Internet to banking APIs. All the background processes are more or less the same. If you are okay that convenience fee is justified if grocery is delivered to your home, then MDR (if masked as convenience fee) can also be justified as providing convenience of not having to carry cash from ATM to shop. You just swipe a card, and make payment. No extra trip to ATM, no fear of cash being stolen/robbed. It's a major convenience.

At this points, it seems like doing mental gymnastics to justify convenience fee in one form & oppose in another form. (The RBI rule already has a loophole, so not much weightage should be given to that.)

I try to empathise with everyone, and try to find middle ground, instead of always looking only for my benefit.
Lots of people I come across fail at empathy, and always want the rules & processes that favour them. If same person is customer, then he/she will be justify getting huge discounts/freebies, and even will haggle with businesses to get little extra discount. When same person becomes a seller, then same person will try level best to get more bucks out of customer's pocket by hook or by crook.

There is a famous quote about such biased people, which I partially remember:
When people are young and earn no money, they support socialism, so that the wealth be distributed equally.
When people becomes rich & old, they support capitalism, so that people get paid whatever they work for.

You're taking this in a totally wrong way. How can you just assume people that haggle or save on their hard earned money are not empathic? It looks like you've been trapped into the emotional trap of dealers which I mentioned earlier. What is illegal is illegal, it's been decided by the regulators, it's not you and I who debated on forums and made such rules.

Fuel surcharge is a practical thing that even banks clearly say. You really think dealers would've just kept silent if they were at loss or weren't making enough margins even after accepting the card? There would've been total boycott against MDR charges/RBI guidelines, etc. and petitions. There are thousands of dealers across India, it's not about one city or a handful of them. Many of them are up right greedy exploiting customers. They don't give a single F about you or anyone. All they see is how much they can squeeze out of your pocket. They wouldn't mind selling you through misleading info as well. Often times we talk about how insurance agents mislead customers and sold things, looted senior citizens and gullible people. You wanna be empathic on this? Go ahead and give away all your money, do not ask for any discounts if charity and empathy is what you wanna do out there.

Stop being a fool and falling into emotional traps of businesses. I run a business too. We do it for PROFIT not for charity. We give discounts too. We pay all our operational expenses, salaries, hosting charges, payment solutions charges, affiliate commissions, office rentals, company compliances, legal, CA, recruitment, management, taxes, and a dozens of SaaS subscriptions to operate our biz, etc. etc. there are many things behind the scene to run a business and we still make profits obviously because the pricing and everything is calculated taking into account all of these things just like any proper business would but we don't cry and ask customers to not take more discounts or try to sneak in additional charges/upsell things to increase our margins.

Your money, you should know how to spend wisely and know what is your right, what is wrong, what is illegal/legal and not let ANYONE exploit it.

You'll never find any dealer that would request and honestly say MDR fees is supposed to be paid by them as a merchant but requests you to pay it because it's killing their margin, instead, they confidently try to fool the end customer saying if you pay by card, then you pay additional so and so % because that's the standard and you will have to pay. And you want to be empathic towards that? It's one thing to request and negotiate and another to demand. I refuse to bend to illegal demands.

I would rather not give in to such demands, save on my hard earned $ to the last penny and put those saved money to real use (charities, education, health, etc.). If they aren't making enough margins, then that's really of not my concern and shouldn't be either because NO damn businesses will disclose honestly how much margins they're making on every sale and the incentives for hitting the milestones that manufacturers award in addition to commissions and other gains they make out of it. If it's a loss business, then they can refuse to sell or shut it down and move on to other things that got better margins.

P.S. I do appreciate honest sales folks that are grinding and reward them (directly or indirectly). FYI, even though I was getting insurance at a fairly better rates outside for my other vehicle, just because my SA was really one of a kind and did things beyond his reach for a rather complex matter, I ended up buying the insurance through him at a markup more than outside while refusing to pay for MDR charges, at the end, we all were happy. Similarly I've helped meet targets for my RM. Referred folks to the SA when someone wanted a vehicle, so they get biz/meet his targets and refused to take referral bonus. In fact, this latest vehicle, the sales guy is super awesome, so I've made my mind to help him hit his this month's target through my referrals (through auto forum where I'm active and once again told him I don't need any referral bonuses and if possible he can keep it to himself on top of whatever he already earns), but again we ain't paying illegal MDR charges regardless of our rapport. The day RBI makes it legal, I'll happily accept it too but if it's illegal, it stays illegal, so I'll obviously not bend myself and fall for their shit. Peace!

 

[card-shard]

My point of contention with your post was about the weird justification of MDR vs Convenience fee, which you carefully ignored.
Please let me know, if you've any counter-points about my following point, perhaps it may change my mind. Or let me know, if you agree that swiping CC is indeed a "convenience" like online recharge/order delivery/etc...

POS machines are powered by same gateways, and they also communicate via Internet to banking APIs. All the background processes are more or less the same. If you are okay that convenience fee is justified if grocery is delivered to your home, then MDR (if masked as convenience fee) can also be justified as providing convenience of not having to carry cash from ATM to shop. You just swipe a card, and make payment. No extra trip to ATM, no fear of cash being stolen/robbed. It's a major convenience.

You'll never find any dealer that would request and honestly say MDR fees is supposed to be paid by them as a merchant but requests you to pay it because it's killing their margin, instead, they confidently try to fool the end customer saying if you pay by card, then you pay additional so and so % because that's the standard and you will have to pay. And you want to be empathic towards that? It's one thing to request and negotiate and another to demand. I refuse to bend to illegal demands.

I believe in letting shopkeepers decide what's best for their business in terms of payment modes. If they accept CC without extra charges, I use that. If they ask for extra charges, I then pay via UPI/Debit card etc. I don't believe in fighting for pennies, or chasing some spend-waiver/other reward milestone on CC.
In my exp of 2 vehicle purchases: 1st seller asked for extra charges, so NEFT payment was done. 2nd one accepted CC with no extra charges, so CC was swiped.
And, going by the trend, more & more companies will add "convenience fee" going forward.

For everything else, we've difference of opinion, and it's fine to have different opinions. Peace out ✌️ ✌️

 

[SmartSave]

My point of contention with your post was about the weird justification of MDR vs Convenience fee, which you carefully ignored.
Please let me know, if you've any counter-points about my following point, perhaps it may change my mind. Or let me know, if you agree that swiping CC is indeed a "convenience" like online recharge/order delivery/etc...

Your understanding of convenience fee itself is wrong. MDR and Convenience fees are two different things where in MDR is charged on debit/credit cards only and is variable value whereas convenience fees is generally a fixed charge on all payment modes and it varies from one platform to another. For example, there's convenience fees on booking flight tickets by a travel agent, there's Swiggy taking convenience fees which they were experimenting by levying 2 rupees which is far less than the MDR charges, there's convenience fees by gov. portals for even using net banking too which technically have no MDR charges. So first understand what convenience fees is and its purpose.

Here's a quote from the RBI's discussion paper regarding this subject:

12.3. Convenience Fee

12.3.1. This is an additional fee levied by service providers / online platforms over and above the cost of service. Generally, this fee is levied ‘per unit’ of service availed and may be same for all modes of digital payments. For instance, an online platform may charge convenience fee from customers for booking movie tickets or flight tickets. Customers may prefer to pay these convenience charges (for availing the facility of booking tickets from the comfort of their home) instead of travelling to the company’s booking counters and standing in queues for purchasing the tickets. Convenience fee offers a direct and sustainable source of revenue for such online platforms / service providers, and sometimes, it is the major source of revenue for them. This is seen, for example, in the case of online ticket booking platforms. It helps movie goers to avoid queues at counters and to handle physical cash; it also enables the theatres to serve a large volume of customers without having to employ requisite staff.

12.3.2. Convenience fee is usually a fixed fee irrespective of the booking amount but can vary based on service availed. It also varies from one service provider to another. Often, there is a thin line dividing convenience fee and surcharging for a transaction.

12.3.3. Unlike the surcharge, which is generally not levied in a transparent manner, convenience fee is usually disclosed upfront to the customers by the merchants – the cost of the product and the convenience fee applied are separately disclosed. The convenience fee can come in different guises – internet handling fee, facilitation fee, etc. – but the intent is to recover something more than the cost / price of the product / service.

Their example has explained things better.

I believe in letting shopkeepers decide what's best for their business in terms of payment modes. If they accept CC without extra charges, I use that. If they ask for extra charges, I then pay via UPI/Debit card etc. I don't believe in fighting for pennies, or chasing some spend-waiver/other reward milestone on CC.
In my exp of 2 vehicle purchases: 1st seller asked for extra charges, so NEFT payment was done. 2nd one accepted CC with no extra charges, so CC was swiped.
And, going by the trend, more & more companies will add "convenience fee" going forward.

Shopkeepers naturally determine what is most advantageous for their business, your belief doesn't matter to them. This isn't about what you believe or I believe, this is again about what is illegal and legal. If something is illegal and the other party is trying to "fool" the end consumer, that should not be entertained. Ofc no one is stopping anyone from entertaining anyone.

Re-read what I said earlier, there's difference between "request" and "demand", requesting to pay additional is something one can decide based on various factors and it's a choice of the end consumer, it's like tipping someone for their good service as an appreciation but demand is not the right way especially by fooling the end customer as if using credit card is a sin and that's what these dealers do. It's like that force tipping system in the US where you're demanded to tip instead of out of choice which has ruined the tipping system altogether there. You like their service, you tip.

Oh and you're again comparing small time shopkeepers ("fighting for pennies") with car dealers which has been the primary topic that generate sales in volumes and the passed on MDR charges could become significant, like in my case, that's about 7.8k, it's as much as the registration fees they're charging for this vehicle, so it sure isn't "pennies".

 

[vine]

This. THIS is the motivation I needed. I am in talks with Kotak Sales Rep to move my current account banking to Kotak Privy Plat with 15L IP. I am going to Push for White Reserve, I asked but he denied saying can't do (only can to White LTF). But after going through your friend's experience, I will push more now.
Thanks dude.

Bhai, any update with your negotiation.

 

[aayusharyan]

Bhai, any update with your negotiation.

No progress, he said not possible, I said try talking to BM, he said BM will also say no only. I insisted to still try. Waiting for response.

 

[drsel]

Freind of mine called me today, he is an entrepreneur, has a startup with friends making and installing electric car chargers ,never had a credit card till now ,went upto HDFC bank Lucknow branch few weeks back to open an account with a check of 20 Lakhs and told them only if he gets an Infinia LTF ,first they said we'll give you DCB LTF ,try for Infinia after you open the account but he wouldn't take any of it ,told them either give Infinia or he'll take his business to Axis people (who were offering him Magnus) ,so the HDFC people agreed and he got an Infinia FYF with 55 Lakhs limit

What makes me jealous is that I'm 31 and the best I've got is a Magnus with 5 Lakhs limit ,which is like my 15th card my 8 year credit card journey ,Infinia is something of a dream for me ,can't even get DCB from them ,all I've from HDFC is a measly Millennia with 1.16 Lakhs limit

And this guy is just 27 & this is his first card. 🙄

Thoughts ?

In what way is Infinia is better than Magnus Burgundy + Atlas?

 

[di1in]

If I’m trying to get an Infinia card, does it work if I transfer mutual funds to my HDFC demat instead of cash deposits?

 

[Deleted member 21942]

If I’m trying to get an Infinia card, does it work if I transfer mutual funds to my HDFC demat instead of cash deposits?

Always remember the path to success is only ULIP.

 

[Lobogris]

If I’m trying to get an Infinia card, does it work if I transfer mutual funds to my HDFC demat instead of cash deposits?

No. Definitely not. They want new investments where they make some money.

 

[drsel]

No. Definitely not. They want new investments where they make some money.

Ask what new investments are required to get Infinia and withdraw them as soon as you get the Infinia.